Tuesday, July 10, 2012

September 2012 Forbidden and Limited List prediction --- Part 1

Forbidden and limited list aka The Ban List discussions came real early this time. I wasn’t expecting it to start till end of next week, normally I want to be the first guy to discuss about it, but seems like I missed the chance this time. Curse you assignments!!

The list discussion is basically a tradition for us bloggers now. Everyone has a common hate, and a little bit of varying from individual to individual. It almost seems like it’s against the law to NOT post anything regarding discussion on the ban list. I say the common goal of the majority of us blogger is to show how good we understand the game and how well we can predict Konami, gaining credential in the process; but mostly, just for the “I called it!!” moment. Let us not part from the main topic.

Normally the September format would be a lot better than the March one, or at least at the start of the format. This list would normally put the game at a very healthy state for at least 2 or 3 months before the inevitable happens, aka new sets. The reason why the March list (where Asia, European, and Worlds are held) feature a less skill based format might be something among the lines of “people need power cards because there are bigger and more important events; as compare to the Sep format”. Don’t quote me!!

Forbidden :
Future Fusion – This card is on EVERYONE’s list, even for Chaos Dragon players. I think this is because we know that if this card doesn’t go, something bad is gonna happen to our precious Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon for sure, well, theres no guarantee Konami won’t outright hit both of them, but at least, there’s some chances. Foolish Burial x5 for Dragons + Random Zephyros//Brionac based OTK//FTKs are bad. The only 1 card FTK in the game should go away, don’t even try to hit the other guys, cause we all know this is the main catalyst. I know this card just got reprinted to UR in the most recent reprint set, BUT. Royal Oppression was banned 2 weeks after it was reprinted a SR, and it wasn’t a broken card to begin with (back then). I can go on all day with just this card alone, but I say we all know why this card gotta go.

Monster Reborn  –This card is the one top deck that would win you games by its own most of the time. I actually love MR a lot, its one of those cards that remind me how long I’ve played this game, witnessing it getting on and off the banlist a few times now, but I’ll have to agree, its time to put this card back into the banlist once and for all. Like all other cards from early in the game’s history, the card wasn’t well designed, there wasn’t a drawback to it and no limitations, and like such cards from back then, it should join them in the banlist. Overall, its just a card that adds too much luck into the game (not to say opening TGU and Rabbit takes a lot of skill to play).

Although I hate Mind Control and think of it as an evil, but I do think it should replace MR as the necessary evil in the game. Without Mind Control, I could make Photon Bounzer and look down on a bunch of Inzektors without fear. Or, I could just set Ryko, knowing you can never use it against me. While I do think that this card generates a lot of unnecessary advantages at times, but I do not think that’s enough to land it on the Forbidden zone yet.

Gustaph Max – Everyone reading this blog should know how much I hated this card. It takes a deck that needs skill and knowledge to play (my precious Hieratics of cause) and turns them into a no-brain 3 card combo. I would really like Konami to hit this card instead of putting REDMD to 1. REDMD to 1 will outright kill Hieratics, while killing Gustaph Max kills its ability to perform an easy OTK. While go that far considering Hieratics aren’t winning much anywhere, even with Gustaph Max. Also, the card has OTK spelled all over it, like all cards with such labels, please just hit it. (This is like my wish for this September list, do not kill Hieratics)

Pot of Avarice – This is the last card I wanna see banned. While not many decks can run this card now, for the decks that could, this card generates too much advantage, and most of the time, the plus 1 is just an added bonus. This card completes the Wind-Up Loop, it lets you use the 3rd Rescue Rabbit, among others. While more could be discuss about this card, I feel we all could come into agreement on just how powerful this card can be mid to late game (for some decks, early deck even). I can no longer see this card as balance or situational anymore for what is does is nothing but generate loops.

Limited :

Unlike the forbidden, which you just throw in whatever card you think to be too broken to keep; you need to plan before making a limited list. I always think that the banned list should not kill a deck, but to make it less deadly. Some cards doesn’t require the limiting status, but there are some (ie Mezuki and DAD) who are too powerful to be anything more than 1, but seem to be useless at 1. Hence, its no easy task to make a limited list, I give you that.

Unlike what other people might do, I do not think any of the Inzektors deserves a place here, at all.

Dark Magician of Chaos, Magician of Faith – both of these can and should come off the list. This also helps Konami boost the sales of the Spell Book archtype in Abyss Rising. These 2 no longer have the use of being in the list and could possibly come back formats ago. Even with MR in the game, these 2 would be too slow to be splashable, the only decks I could see any of them being played would be Spellcaster variants, again, that is no bad for the game, and spellcasters do need the push, being 1 of the original big 3.

Goyo Guardian – Unlike the former 2, I do understand why this card is on the forbidden list. This card ranks with Trishula and Brionac (a card many people fear might get hit this list) as the most powerful syncro ever printed, DSF was just plain broken, it’s not powerful, just broken. Why do I see it coming back? Since syncros no longer do anything, that’s why. This card back at 1 instantly put BF back on the threat radar (not that high up, but still … ). Also, this is a great out to Bounzer, Tiras and Gaia Dragoon, or you could kamikaze this into Focus Force. It gives people a valid reason to synchro summon again, cause as of now, no Syncro monster other than maybe Scrap Dragon could walk over those 3 commonly played xyz walls.

Wind-Up Zenmighty – Its way too easy to summon; way too powerful and also does too many things for the deck. Some might say banned Hunter and this card is balanced. Yes, pulling a Wind-Up Rabbit from your deck to the field turn 1 is real balance, not to mention Magician and Rat. Hunter was never a problem before Zenmighty, sure your opponent could still ditch a card or 2 from your hand, but I doubt people would still play Hunter if Zenmighty is at 1. In case you didn’t notice, Wind-Ups took both WCQ North America and European Championships, they are good. One might think it fluked a win because no one was playing Maxx Cs in the main in WCQNA, that might be; but I see the majority of the players playing 2~3 copies of Maxx C in EC, and yet, the deck still topped. Wind-Ups needs to slow down.

Royal Oppression – This is on everyone of my list since it was banned, but now, I’m beginning to feel iffy bout bringing it back. I was thinking, what deck would love to see this card back. AntiMeta decks? Yes, that is true. But, I was thinking Inzektors. Yup, those insects that everyone wants to step on this banlist would definitely welcome this card into their arsenal. Rabbit needs to constantly put xyzs on the board, both Dragon decks can’t play this, HEROs now depend on Bubbleman way too much (they would still play it, no doubt). Only Gadgets and Inzektors can truly play this card with almost no drawback. Do I want it back, YES!! But I could do well without it.

I really really wanna put TGU here, but I feel TGU at one kills it, kinda like Tengu at 2. But I do not feel semi-limiting TGU is gonna change anything. I’ll leave Semi and unrestricted for another day.


KKItal said...

Worst list I saw until today...
Oppression, Goyo, DMoC AND MoF? You're just crazy!
Here a banned list that was really good deliberated:
New Banned:
Wind-Up Hunter
Future Fusion
New Limited:
Mystical Space Typhoon
Evolzar Laggia
Witch of the Black Forest (experiment, the only one discussable)
New Semi-Limited:
Inzektor Hornet
Reborn Tengu
T.G. Striker

We should step away to destroy decks with banlist and start to balance them out. I think everyone would like to see Plant-Synchro, Angels and T.G.s topping again!

Best Regards

Ventus said...

I dont see any profit for Konami unbanning Spore or Tengu. Tengu should stay at 2, since he is abusable for a lot of things. Synchs shouldnt come back, maybe if we get more Xyz but we are only at the beginning of the xyz era ...

Semi Hornet kinda does nothing as some people already played Hornet at 2 ... even without Hornet Inzektor are still cool, since they are the only deck being able to make 3,4,5,6 xyz.

I would say kill Dragonfly that more than enough to kill them.

And I totally agree to MST to one. It is too powerful and you wont be punished for setting only 1 card anymore, depends though if peopel would playe Night Beam ...

Laggia to 1 is okay too but he isnt a problem as you can play around him, real problems are stuff like TGU adding consistancy and abuse to the deck. And the option to go into Dolkka.

KKItal said...

Did you read my post? Or at least think about some choices? Seems not so...
Sangan at 0 will make Rabbit AND Inzektor less stable. It also weakens Tour Guide, beacause you can just play 1 unless you use Pot of Avarice or you play Tour Bus (which is pretty bad if you draw it).
You said you want to kill Dragonfly to kill Inzektors. And after that you want to limit Rescue Rabbit to kill Dino-Rabbit?
That's not the right way.
Btw: doing something with Hornet and of course Sangan is the ONLY way to weaken Inzektors without destroying them, since any change of Centi/DFly to 1 will kill the deck.

Tengu is abusable for what? Yes for Synchro-Summons, but with Glow-Up still banned where should be the problem?

GQ said...

I would agree bout hitting Laggia, but limit it would seems a bit too much. I was gonna say semi it in the next post.

I would definitely want to see some older decks come back, but no, I don't want to see older decks topping again. We need newer decks coming in or people would just stick with the older stuffs, for a community that is highly dependent on a single major card shop, them closing down is the last thing I wanna see.

Also, I don't wanna kill inzektors cause I don't really think they deserve it. The reason why their numbers are so big is mainly because they are the cheapest tier 1, not the most powerful.

Losing Sangan basically makes TGU not as profit making as it should be. I don't think Konami is gonna risk EXP5 dropping in value, especially since its the ratios of getting a specific UR is now 1:6. From their point of view, and those of us who have never played with the card, I say we would not want it to die out so fast, like Tengu.

KKItal said...

It's a nice discussion with You, You should enable a chat! :D
Laggia at 2 is totally non-sense, look at the TCG-Decklists, 80 % are playing 2 Laggia and 2 Dolkka.
As I said, Sangan at 0 to remove Consistency and Laggia at 1 to think twice about using eff and the deck would be weakened, but still strong. Especially in combination with Verz, Laggia at 1 would change that much, but it would harden the "lockdown" (hope you understand me ;)).

And sorry that I'm not your opinion, but removing Sangan would not change anything regarding the hype in the OCG, because it's still a free rank-3-XYZ.
And btw, as a TCG-player I can tell you that you don't want to face a Rabbit- or Inzektor-Deck with 4 Sangans...

Additionally, what do you prefer? Banning/Limiting two or more theme-based cards (or cards were you can build a deck with) like Hornet or Rabbit or Ban a generic Recruiter that can be played in nearly every deck and never makes disadvante (infact well played it just makes +1)?

Ask if I wasn't understable. =)

KKItal said...

*"Laggia at 1 wouldn't change that much, (...)"

Regarding Your DMoC-wish:


Dominic said...

I donwan them to kill off hieratics too >:(

GQ said...

I get you, cause here every Laggia player is playing Laggia in 3's; I did forgot the reason for that is we don't have dolkka here.

"Additionally, what do you prefer? Banning/Limiting two or more theme-based cards (or cards were you can build a deck with) like Hornet or Rabbit or Ban a generic Recruiter that can be played in nearly every deck and never makes disadvante (infact well played it just makes +1)? "

actually, I would personally hit the generic ones. I don't like to kill a deck, but I don't like the fact that all decks needs certain cards as staples. I personally feel each deck should have it unique sets of cards, I never liked staples in monster form, Veiler doesn't act like a monster most of the time, I can live with that, the others ... not so much. But thats just me.

Kinda contradicts what I said? Maybe, but I don't feel like Sangan is staple without TGU (at full power)

KKItal said...

So it looks that we've the same opinion, banning Sangan instead of limiting Rescue Rabbit / Dragonfly should be a good choice.
Also limiting Laggia is regarding VerzRabbit and the existence of Dolkka (in the TCG, will it be released soon in the OCG?)
In combination with Hornet at 1 (changed opinion, Hornet at 1 in combination with Sangan at 0 would be the best solution) Inzektor and Rabbit are slowed down enough. Remains Chaos-Dragons/Hieratics (both OTK-decks, Hieratics with less control-elements).
Here I think Space at 1 to enable more defensive Traps would help.
But what do you think about Hero-Variants? They aren't played a lot in TCG, do you think they'll be hit because they're doing pretty good in the OCG?

InvidiousLeviathan said...

I really like your list. I agree that konami should not touch hieratics and only hit Gustav. I actually think konami will do something to inzektors, I don't know what but something. Future fusion needs to go. I really hope dmoc returns. I am a big fan of the new spellcaster support and dmoc would definitely help the archtype. I also think BLS could be banned as well but its not so bad with monster reborn hit. I have died so many times from monster reborning bls. I kill it once, my opponent brings it right back. Goyo also definitely needs to come off the list to one. The only thing I do not agree with is hitting zenmaighty. Ban hunter so the deck can at least special summon. Without zenmaighty the deck dies and you say you do not want to kill decks. The real threat is the hand loop not the special summoning.

KKItal said...

Dark Magician of Chaos, are you serious???

Check this:


InvidiousLeviathan said...

Temperance of prophecy can special dmoc easily I know, but temperance also says that you can only special summon 1 lv5 or higher monster the turn you activate this effect. Its not broken.

GQ said...

@InvidiousLeviathan : I can see something happening to Inzektors as well, since they're no longer printed in sets, but I can't seem to call what they wanna do with them. I've though of something I wanna try, I'll discuss them in part 2.

@HHlTal : how bout we just put TGU to one, and basically all problems solves itself XD

The problem with Rabbit is that without TGU, its just too inconsistent. I don't think you need to touch anything in that deck if TGU is non-existence

Space at 1 seems like hell to me, people here play a lot of traps, in fact I suppose thats how we compensate having no promos; space at 2 seems reasonable, at 1 ... I'm not really fond of that

Regarding HEROs, I just hope they don't touch Airman, but konami loves HEROs and HEROs promote Abyss Rising, so I'm not sure what are they gonna do

KKItal said...

Tour Guide at 1 is the same as Tengu at 2: dead.
With Sangan banned you've still the probabilty to summon TGU into Leviair and search Rabbit with Sarco.
And as I stated it would be an experiment to allow Witch of the black Forest instead Sangan.

1 Witch <<<<<< 4 Sangans.

So you still have 4 Rescues in the Rabbit deck.

Laggia/Dolkka/Ouroboros are also with just 4 Rescues (instead 7) awesome XYZ. And don't forget, you can summon them also if a Sabersaurus/Verz survives a turn! Not forgetting Guaiba.

Think a little bit outside the box, removing the consistency from a build that's developed over months (and showed to be the best one) doesn't mean that there are no other builds that are also consistent!

GQ said...

Exactly, if I want to hit the TGU engine, it would be to kill it. But, now isn't the time for that ... yet.

regarding your 2nd statement, I like to think of it this way "if a deck manages to get back on its own after it was hit by the banned list, good job, and it deserves to rule another format" , thats what happen to BF for 3~4 formats in a role, and thats why the deck has so much respect

mike said...

Wad happen to bls hahaha

GQ said...

don't really care about BLS

Anonymous said...

I think that Konami should stat releasing both XYZs and Synchros together...Like that the meta would be more competitive and fast and yet with a wide variety of meta decks (XYZ has Insectors,Wind-Up,Rabbit Laggia Syncgro has Junk Doppel,TGAA and Laval) so many more decks would be playable and it would be more fun^^

MaZura De Ville said...

well, i think Goyo will still on the forbidden list, since he's totally a broken synchro monster :D lv.6, 2800 atk and ability to revive the monster he destroyed